0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

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CameronD
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Re: 0.84: Edit IPTC: "Don't Show this message..." doesn't w

Post by CameronD » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:48 pm

Erixx haxx wrote: Again,Honestly, This "Save to all files" Is Double plural words together and not needed....
Save to files, is the correct way
I don't agree. "All" is more than just plural. "Save to all files" is clearer. (edit: and I agree with Helmut's point in the other thread that clarity is more important than grammatical perfection)

In reality, there is no unambiguous label for the button, because the number of files actually written will depend on the current changed values and on the settings for the options. It might be only one file actually written!

And while we are discussing button labels, the "change timestamps" dialogue calls them "write" and "write all". Is there a good reason that these sets of buttons are different, or should they use the same labels?

Can I suggest yet a different set of button labels: "Apply" and "Apply to all files". This would be strictly more accurate in the IPTC dialogue because you are applying the set of update rules to all files, but that might mean that you do not write or save to every file.

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helmut
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Re: 0.84: Edit IPTC: "Don't Show this message..." doesn't w

Post by helmut » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:25 pm

CameronD wrote:... And while we are discussing button labels, the "change timestamps" dialogue calls them "write" and "write all". Is there a good reason that these sets of buttons are different, or should they use the same labels?
These buttons should have the same labelling because in both dialogs they do the same thing: Apply the desired change(s) to one or all files.
CameronD wrote:.. Can I suggest yet a different set of button labels: "Apply" and "Apply to all files". This would be strictly more accurate in the IPTC dialogue because you are applying the set of update rules to all files, but that might mean that you do not write or save to every file.
Correct, CameronD. The dialog doesn't close when selecting these buttons, so "Save" is wrong. (I forgot about my own thoughts and suggestion, see one of my above posts and the long post about meaningful button naming, see topic http://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.p ... 29#p139029).

Reason for this topic is a misunderstanding due to the user interface. We can continue this discussion in this topic and try to find an even better solution.

For beta 3 the button naming should be changed as follows - both in "Change timestamp" and in "Edit IPTC/IIM" dialog:
[Apply] [Apply to all files] [Cancel]

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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by CameronD » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:05 am

In addition, I think "Apply to all files" works better to avoid the initial misconception that m.Th. had here: http://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p137921
m.Th. wrote:So, finally I learnt that what „Save All” means ...at least I hope! It means „Save current metadata to all files from selection”. This is totally different from all other programs in the world where „Save All” means save all documents with their respective content and not to save the current content to all open documents.

CameronD
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by CameronD » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:49 am

xnview wrote:
m.Th. wrote: ...But I think that I found the problem: What is "Always clear all fields" checkbox supposed to do? I noticed that it appears only on multi-selection.
If you open the IPTC dialog on multiple files to change only one field like caption, you need to clear the fields before, else you'll write all fields from first file by using 'save all'
I have just realised, and confirmed, that this can be a bit dangerous.
If the user has deselected the option "keep original value if new value is empty", then this will guarantee wiping all relevant metadata from all selected files. I feel that a warning about this is far more important than a reminder about a box the user has already ticked.

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Re: 0.84: Edit IPTC: "Don't Show this message..." doesn't w

Post by xnview » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:06 am

helmut wrote: For beta 3 the button naming should be changed as follows - both in "Change timestamp" and in "Edit IPTC/IIM" dialog:
[Apply] [Apply to all files] [Cancel]
But what does make 'Apply'? The label is not clear, the user don't know if the file is changed
With 'Save' or 'Write' we know that file is changed
Pierre.

Erixx haxx
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by Erixx haxx » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:15 pm

xnview wrote:But what does make 'Apply'? The label is not clear, the user don't know if the file is changed
With 'Save' or 'Write' we know that file is changed
Your correct.

Apply is a more generic term. Apply to file / Apply To Files, would be a little better. Someone may still be unsure if file is being saved also, though. But it should be implied here.

Write, is a more direct term, Explains a little more than apply... You can still add "To File / To Files" To explain even more.
Save, is used more often in menus/dialogs. as long as "To file / To Files" follows. to explain what is getting saved.

All terms could be used though.
This this is for U.S English anyways, I know we have many different people here.
Last edited by Erixx haxx on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CameronD
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Re: 0.84: Edit IPTC: "Don't Show this message..." doesn't w

Post by CameronD » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:12 pm

xnview wrote:
helmut wrote: For beta 3 the button naming should be changed as follows - both in "Change timestamp" and in "Edit IPTC/IIM" dialog:
[Apply] [Apply to all files] [Cancel]
But what does make 'Apply'? The label is not clear, the user don't know if the file is changed
With 'Save' or 'Write' we know that file is changed
Yes, "Apply" by itself does seem a bit vague. On the other hand, "Save" and "Write" also rely on the user already understanding that changes are being applied only to the current image.

The unambiguous meanings are:
"Apply to current image" and
"Apply to all selected images"

I see no problem in using the full wording. There seem to me to be plenty of area for larger buttons - however I always enlarge the dialogue box for
  1. a bigger preview image, and
  2. to see all tab labels.
Once enlarged to a useful size, then the "save template", and similar buttons have lots of wasted space, and the line with the 3 action buttons always has more blank area than buttons (at least on my system)

In any case, "Apply" is very standard UI terminology. If I type a new caption into an "Edit" window, and see a button labelled "Apply" then I don't see what interpretation there can be other than "make these changes permanent". That might require writing to the image file, or to a separate xmp file, or updating only the file metadata (e.g. for File:Date Created, and/or updating the database. The user should already have configured these preferences and thus know what is to be written when "Applied"

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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by xnview » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:40 am

so which label?
Pierre.

CameronD
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by CameronD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:42 am

xnview wrote:so which label?
My preference would be
  1. Apply to current Image
  2. Apply to all Images
  3. Cancel,
but whether it says "File" or "Image" I have no strong opinion.


What do others think?

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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by Erixx haxx » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:06 pm

xnview wrote:so which label?
How about:
Save and Batch Save ---This is what you said it does in your first post.
or
Write and Batch Write

I just don't think Apply is the best. I see Save used more with file operations. Apply more in settings dialogs or stepped changes.
You say it doesn't sound good to you.. maybe its a hint, or maybe we're both wrong.

Either way, I say use the one you think more people will understand. We can always change it again if it turns to an issue.

My 2 cents... Thanks

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helmut
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by helmut » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:08 pm

For now I'd go for:
[Write] [Write to all files] [Cancel]

"Save" is used when writing and closing the dialog. "Apply" could be used but is more for applying a change on settings or applying an effect.

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helmut
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by helmut » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:07 pm

Fixed (In beta 4 the buttons are labels [Write] [Write to all files] [Cancel])

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