0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

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0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:50 pm

IPTC window is, in fact, unusable for serious work in multi-selection mode.

Steps:

0. (setup). Let's have the following files img_01.jpg, img_02.jpg, img_03.jpg... each one with the captions c1, c2, c3... respectively. If we open each file separately (Ctrl+I) we'll see the saved data.

1. Select our files by using Shift+Select and press Ctrl+I. On the right correctly appears img_01.jpg

Expected: in the Caption field should appear 'c1'
Actual: blank

2. Write down in the Caption field c11 and press ">" button. The form correctly advances to img_02.
3. Write in the Caption field c22 and press ">" button. The form correctly advances to img_03.
4. Write in the Caption field c33 and press "Cancel". (the ">" button is disabled).


Expected: When we press "Cancel" a message should appear saying "The metadata for img_03.jpg has changed. Do you want to overwrite it?"
Actual: The form silently closes, silently overwriting the metadata for img_01 and img_02 but NOT for img_03. :!: :shock:
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:54 am

...to add: {Save All} button in fact doesn't do anything. Why not remove it? (I think that it is the best solution - otherwise Pierre must rework the entire workflow)
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by xnview » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:43 pm

m.Th. wrote: 1. Select our files by using Shift+Select and press Ctrl+I. On the right correctly appears img_01.jpg

Expected: in the Caption field should appear 'c1'
Actual: blank
I have c1 in the caption, do you use 'IPTC update XMP' setting?
2. Write down in the Caption field c11 and press ">" button. The form correctly advances to img_02.
3. Write in the Caption field c22 and press ">" button. The form correctly advances to img_03.
4. Write in the Caption field c33 and press "Cancel". (the ">" button is disabled).

Expected: When we press "Cancel" a message should appear saying "The metadata for img_03.jpg has changed. Do you want to overwrite it?"
Actual: The form silently closes, silently overwriting the metadata for img_01 and img_02 but NOT for img_03. :!: :shock:
when you press >, you have a dialog asking to overwrite.
Please check Settings>General>Reset all confirm prompts
{Save All} button
Save all write iptc fields for the batch
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:58 pm

xnview wrote:
m.Th. wrote: 1. Select our files by using Shift+Select and press Ctrl+I. On the right correctly appears img_01.jpg

Expected: in the Caption field should appear 'c1'
Actual: blank
I have c1 in the caption, do you use 'IPTC update XMP' setting?
Yes. The problem still persists. If I press ">" and then "<" back, c1 correctly appears. However, at the beginning the field is blank.

...But I think that I found the problem: What is "Always clear all fields" checkbox supposed to do? I noticed that it appears only on multi-selection.

2. Write down in the Caption field c11 and press ">" button. The form correctly advances to img_02.
3. Write in the Caption field c22 and press ">" button. The form correctly advances to img_03.
4. Write in the Caption field c33 and press "Cancel". (the ">" button is disabled).

Expected: When we press "Cancel" a message should appear saying "The metadata for img_03.jpg has changed. Do you want to overwrite it?"
Actual: The form silently closes, silently overwriting the metadata for img_01 and img_02 but NOT for img_03. :!: :shock:
when you press >, you have a dialog asking to overwrite.
Please check Settings>General>Reset all confirm prompts
Yes - this solved it. However, put a confirmation message "Your confirm prompts will be displayed again. {Ok}" :)
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by xnview » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:51 pm

m.Th. wrote: ...But I think that I found the problem: What is "Always clear all fields" checkbox supposed to do? I noticed that it appears only on multi-selection.
If you open the IPTC dialog on multiple files to change only one field like caption, you need to clear the fields before, else you'll write all fields from first file by using 'save all'
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:51 am

xnview wrote:
m.Th. wrote: ...But I think that I found the problem: What is "Always clear all fields" checkbox supposed to do? I noticed that it appears only on multi-selection.
If you open the IPTC dialog on multiple files to change only one field like caption, you need to clear the fields before, else you'll write all fields from first file by using 'save all'
We had a small "council" here and with deep respect and love our response is...
shocked-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif
shocked-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif (20.77 KiB) Viewed 1948 times
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shocked-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif (20.77 KiB) Viewed 1948 times
shocked-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif
shocked-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif (20.77 KiB) Viewed 1948 times
...speaking from user's point of view: (as I said, I spoke with more users)

1. When someone opens the IPTC window in multi-selection mode, he sees the first image on the right. This is the main focus point. Hence he expects to have the first image's metadata on the left. Seeing blank fields (happens when "Always clear all fields" is checked) scares him away and he tries to close the window without saving in order to not 'erase' his carefully entered metadata in an earlier stage.

2. The impression from point 1. is accentuated by the following behavior: pressing ">" shows the actual data from the 2nd picture, hence the user thinks that "the data from the 1st picture is erased" - thing which is wrong, as you know. UI lied to us.

3. When we open the IPTC window with "Always Clear All Fields" unchecked and we check it, nothing happens. Very, very confusing. We have already the {Clear all fields} for this. Perhaps "Always clear all fields" should be renamed to "Do not load field values", UNCHECK it by default, and if it is checked then for every file do not load the field values?

4. By pressing {Save All} indeed it saves the respective fields from all files. However in order to modify the fields from next files we must press ">" (or "<") which triggers a Save by itself. If, after pressing ">" we respond to "Overwrite?" with "No" the metadadata is lost. Hence the metadata is not kept in memory for all files, just for the current one. Then what purpose {Save All} really have?
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Re: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by xnview » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:49 am

m.Th. wrote: 1. When someone opens the IPTC window in multi-selection mode, he sees the first image on the right. This is the main focus point. Hence he expects to have the first image's metadata on the left. Seeing blank fields (happens when "Always clear all fields" is checked) scares him away and he tries to close the window without saving in order to not 'erase' his carefully entered metadata in an earlier stage.

2. The impression from point 1. is accentuated by the following behavior: pressing ">" shows the actual data from the 2nd picture, hence the user thinks that "the data from the 1st picture is erased" - thing which is wrong, as you know. UI lied to us.
how to make clearer this dialog?
3. When we open the IPTC window with "Always Clear All Fields" unchecked and we check it, nothing happens. Very, very confusing. We have already the {Clear all fields} for this. Perhaps "Always clear all fields" should be renamed to "Do not load field values", UNCHECK it by default, and if it is checked then for every file do not load the field values?
yes 'do not load field values' is better. But need TRUE by default, in the past users have always problem to 'save all ' changes if prload of fields was made...
4. By pressing {Save All} indeed it saves the respective fields from all files. However in order to modify the fields from next files we must press ">" (or "<") which triggers a Save by itself. If, after pressing ">" we respond to "Overwrite?" with "No" the metadadata is lost. Hence the metadata is not kept in memory for all files, just for the current one. Then what purpose {Save All} really have?
'Save' write changes on current file, 'Save all' for the batch of files
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:35 pm

'Save' write changes on current file, 'Save all' for the batch of files.
How can someone have more than one (current) modified file in memory? I just tested and I cannot succeed to make it. Any action I do in order to move to another file (using < or >) saves or deletes the changes from previous file. One modified file in memory = no need for ”Save All”. What I am missing?

...Or perhaps do you mean that [Save All] should save the metadata of the current file on ALL other files? Then this does not work.
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:36 pm

yes 'do not load field values' is better. But need TRUE by default, in the past users have always problem to 'save all ' changes if prload of fields was made...
What problems? ISTM that as you speak, „Save All” should save the data of the 1st(?) file to all the others. But it doesn't work that way. See also my other response above. (I split the topic in two messages)
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by xnview » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:04 pm

m.Th. wrote:
'Save' write changes on current file, 'Save all' for the batch of files.
How can someone have more than one (current) modified file in memory? I just tested and I cannot succeed to make it. Any action I do in order to move to another file (using < or >) saves or deletes the changes from previous file. One modified file in memory = no need for ”Save All”. What I am missing?

...Or perhaps do you mean that [Save All] should save the metadata of the current file on ALL other files? Then this does not work.
'Save all' save IPTC in all selected files, and it works :) what do you have in settings of IPTC dialog?
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:32 pm

XnView GUI Picard Facepalm.jpg
:D

So, finally I learnt that what „Save All” means ...at least I hope! It means „Save current metadata to all files from selection”. This is totally different from all other programs in the world where „Save All” means save all documents with their respective content and not to save the current content to all open documents.

Ok, so I propose:

1. „Always clear fields” to be renamed to „Do not load fields at the beginning” - defaulted to True.
2. If this is checked when the form is opened, then a DSA (Don't Show Again) Dialog should appear saying „We didn't load the field values for the first file because 'Do not load fields at the beginning' is checked” [Ok] (this fixes points 1 & 2 from here: http://newsgroup.xnview.com/posting.php ... 4#pr137823)
3. „Save All” to be renamed to „Save Crt. Values to All Files”. When is pressed a DSA dialog appears already. Slightly change the text to „Are you sure to overwrite IPTC/XMP data for ALL files with the current values of the fields?” (the change - addition - is in red)
4. (optionally but strongly recommended) only in multi-selection mode I would add a button called „Options...” between „Save Crt. Values to All Files” and „Cancel”. When pressed it would simply make active the „Options” tab. This is because the options there influence so deeply the behavior of „Save Ctrl Values to All Files”.
5. If someone presses „Cancel” and there is unsaved data a DSA Dialog should appear saying „You have unsaved data. Do you want to close?” [ok][cancel] - this is regardless of multi-selection or single file mode, in order to be in conformity with the industry standard.


...aaand make the IPTC window work with any file. If the format doesn't support embedding, then write it in an XMP sidecar. :)
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by helmut » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:49 pm

"Save to all" might be a short and precise naming.

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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:21 pm

helmut wrote:"Save to all" might be a short and precise naming.

To be sincere, I tought A LOT at this variant... however, I think that (perhaps?) we should somehow include „current field values” and „to all files”. How to say this in few words?
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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by helmut » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:19 pm

m.Th. wrote:... To be sincere, I tought A LOT at this variant... however, I think that (perhaps?) we should somehow include „current field values” and „to all files”. How to say this in few words?
Currently:
[Save] [Save All]

Suggestion (a bit lenghty, though):
[Save to current file] [Save to all files]

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Re: 0.84: IPTC window: Wrong workflow with multi-selection

Post by m.Th. » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:22 am

helmut wrote:
m.Th. wrote:... To be sincere, I tought A LOT at this variant... however, I think that (perhaps?) we should somehow include „current field values” and „to all files”. How to say this in few words?
Currently:
[Save] [Save All]

Suggestion (a bit lenghty, though):
[Save to current file] [Save to all files]
Much better.

1. If would write "crt. file" would be ok for me.
2. It isn't too long. Because we have space and the meaning is clear. We have another very successful button "Crop, Save & Next". Also, one of the most used button in Outlook is "Save & Close". ...and don't get me started with Photoshop: (both captions and shortcuts...)
Photoshop file menu.jpg
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Brevity is good but clarity is much more important.
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