XnView Software

Various discussion boards for XnView and related products
https://newsgroup.xnview.com/

0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

https://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.php?t=29237

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Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:02 pm
by oops66
xnview wrote:So only ONE settings everywhere?
... In fact, IMHO the concept should look like that (even for the embedded time stamps modifications to user files) - m.Th. proposal:
http://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.p ... 54#p117954
... So a single option ticked ("don't touch my originals" policy by default) should disallow all of these writes files operations (database ---> to users files synchronizations) ;-)
... And an other one (single option too) to "allow all writes operations to users files" , but of course not ticked by default , for specifics users needs ;-)

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:30 pm
by xnview
oops66 wrote:
xnview wrote:So only ONE settings everywhere?
... In fact, IMHO the concept should look like that (even for the embedded time stamps modifications to user files) - m.Th. proposal:
http://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.p ... 54#p117954
... So a single option ticked ("don't touch my originals" policy by default) should disallow all of these writes files operations (database ---> to users files synchronizations) ;-)
... And an other one (single option too) to "allow all writes operations to users files" , but of course not ticked by default , for specifics users needs ;-)
Another setting to disable all others?? Hum seems to be hard to understand...

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:49 pm
by oops66
xnview wrote:... Another setting to disable all others?? Hum seems to be hard to understand...
No, it is very simple ... otherwise it's like a general cutoff valve upstream of other taps

Same meaning but In french ... maybe it's more explicite and simple ?:
"Non, c'est au contraire très simple ... c'est comme un robinet de coupure générale en amont des autres robinets"

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:42 am
by xnview
oops66 wrote:
xnview wrote:... Another setting to disable all others?? Hum seems to be hard to understand...
No, it is very simple ... otherwise it's like a general cutoff valve upstream of other taps
but if all settings are in the same panel, more easy no?

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:27 am
by m.Th.
xnview wrote:
oops66 wrote:
xnview wrote:... Another setting to disable all others?? Hum seems to be hard to understand...
No, it is very simple ... otherwise it's like a general cutoff valve upstream of other taps
but if all settings are in the same panel, more easy no?

Yes. And I think that the problem arises from here: (quoting from the 1st message from this thread)
General -> File Operations -> "Keep original data/time for saving" is OFF
Browser -> misc ->rotation: "Keep original date/time" is OFF
edit IPTC window options : "Keep original date/time" is OFF
These options are more than enough, especially if we rename the last one with: "Metadata change - Keep original date/time" ON/OFF

IMHO the problem arises from the way in which the program handle these settings. I think that the correct IF tree should be something like this:

Code: Select all

If the picture is changed/edited then 
begin
	if is Rotation in browser then
		Look at "Rotation: Keep date/time"
	else
		look at "General -> File Operations" setting.
end
else
if metadata is changed/edited then
begin
	if ("Metadata: Keep Original Date/Time"=ON) AND (Sidecar.Exists=False) then
		Supress changing the Date/Time for the Image
end

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:29 am
by oops66
xnview wrote:
oops66 wrote:
xnview wrote:... Another setting to disable all others?? Hum seems to be hard to understand...
No, it is very simple ... otherwise it's like a general cutoff valve upstream of other taps
but if all settings are in the same panel, more easy no?
... Yes into the same panel too (centralized) , ... IMO I think here is the right place : settings\metadata\IPTC&XMP(&EXIF &files attributes now)\ ... ex:

Case 1 - By default:
⊗ Preserve users data integrity (do "not touch my originals" policy ticked by default)
--------⊗ Allow all writes operations below to embedded metadata (full synchonization DB to users files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for color labels in XMP metadata (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for rating in XMP metadata (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for comment in XMP (dc:description and exif:UserComment)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for IPTC keywords(or data) (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for time stamps: files attributes, EXIF or IPTC (to "Keep original date/time" or not)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for icc profile
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for EXIF embedded thumbnail rebuild
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for etc ....

Case 2 - Allow all:
requested here i think : http://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.p ... 36#p117936
⊝ Preserve users data integrity (do "not touch my originals" policy ticked by default)
--------⊗ Allow all writes operations below to embedded metadata (full synchonization DB to users files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for color labels in XMP metadata (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for rating in XMP metadata (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊗ Allow writes operations for comment in XMP (dc:description and exif:UserComment)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for IPTC keywords(or data) (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for time stamps: files attributes, EXIF or IPTC (to "Keep original date/time" or not)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for icc profile
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for EXIF embedded thumbnail rebuild
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for etc ....

Case 3 - Custom synchonization:
⊝ Preserve users data integrity (do "not touch my originals" policy ticked by default)
--------⊝ Allow all writes operations below to embedded metadata (full synchonization DB to users files)
----------------⊗ Allow writes operations for color labels in XMP metadata (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for rating in XMP metadata (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for comment in XMP (dc:description and exif:UserComment)
----------------⊗ Allow writes operations for IPTC keywords(or data) (synchonize DB to files)
----------------⊗ Allow writes operations for time stamps: files attributes, EXIF or IPTC (to "Keep original date/time" or not)
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for icc profile ....
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for EXIF embedded thumbnail rebuild
----------------⊝ Allow writes operations for etc ....

(------------ to replace, and add, some options to allow the embedded writes here ... In settings\metadata\IPTC&XMP\ ... ---------------)
v Export DB Category to XMP subject and IPTC keyword

v Export rating in XMP metadata
v Export color label in XMP metadata

Comment
v Write comment in XMP (dc:description and exif:UserComment)

-----
And here: ⊝ Allow writes operations for time stamps: files attributes, EXIF or IPTC = not ticked, means "Keep original date/time" in any cases.

TimeStamp for files attributes, EXIF or IPTC data:
General -> File Operations -> "Keep original data/time for saving" is OFF
Browser -> misc ->rotation: "Keep original date/time" is OFF
edit IPTC window options : "Keep original date/time" is OFF

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:32 am
by xnview
Ok, so

Code: Select all

General>File operations>"Keep original data/time" =>
* Overwrite
* Lossless transformation
* Metadata change
Ok??

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:50 am
by m.Th.
xnview wrote:Ok, so

Code: Select all

General>File operations>"Keep original data/time" =>
* Overwrite
* Lossless transformation
* Metadata change
Ok??
For me, yes. But take care how/when they will go in effect.

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:43 am
by xnview
m.Th. wrote: For me, yes. But take care how/when they will go in effect.
?? why it's a setting per operation...

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:00 pm
by m.Th.
xnview wrote:
m.Th. wrote: For me, yes. But take care how/when they will go in effect.
?? why it's a setting per operation...
Re-read the first post which started this long-long thread.

CameronD wants (like all of us) to have the natural way to record changes in any OS:

The DateTime Stamp of the Last Modification must be updated for the file which is modified by the program.

He modifies the file (by changing its metadata - note that the file is a jpg - no sidecars involved) however the Last Change date/time remains the same.

He tried to turn off all the related settings, but failed in his attempt.

So we have TWO problems here:

1. The natural way must be enabled with ease (or even by default): Any file change (content and/OR metadata) must update the Last Change Date/Time.

2. A better GUI organization for the date/time options


We discussed in spades the 2nd problem, but the 1st one (the main one) remains.

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:52 pm
by xnview
See Issue 298 for current status and details.

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:14 pm
by CameronD
oops66 wrote:... but even when you read only(open) a file, you have a write operation to this file: timestamp (access time :atime) ;-)
http://www.unixtutorial.org/2008/04/ati ... lesystems/
That's a slight misinterpretation (assuming I haven't misinterpreted what you wrote).
Writing a timestamp is a write operation on the file's metadata repository, not on the file itself. This is the inode entry in Unix filesystems, or some equivalent location in NTFS.
Updating mtime indicates a write operation on the file itself. As far as I can tell, this applies to all common filesystems.
oops66 wrote: Case 1 - By default:
⊗ Preserve users data integrity (do "not touch my originals" policy ticked by default)...
Sorry, but I do not think this is part of the answer at all.

In my mind, the option of keeping original mtime is completely independent of an option that says whether image metadata is written to the image file.
This is not necessarily related to metadata/IPTC/XMP - it is purely related to file I/O and the options should therefore be located in a tab related to file I/O.

As far as I understand it, the sequence in a Unix/POSIX system is as follows:
1. XnView writes something to the image file.
2. the OS automatically updates the mtime timestamp to "now"
3. XnView then decides, based on user preference, whether to restore the original mtime value, probably by using something like utime().

The introduction of sidecar files means that presumably there are users who might want the same "keep original date" options applied to sidecar files.

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:31 pm
by oops66
... If you go to Tools\Change TimesStamp\... you have:
Change:
File: Modified date
EXIF: Date taken
EXIF: Date digitized
EXIF: Date modified

... So here ... EXIF data (embedded data) can be modified by mistake (without this "preserve my originals" options) ... and no "Undo" possible here ;-)

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:22 am
by CameronD
oops66 wrote:... If you go to Tools\Change TimesStamp\... you have:
Change:
File: Modified date
EXIF: Date taken
EXIF: Date digitized
EXIF: Date modified

... So here ... EXIF data (embedded data) can be modified by mistake (without this "preserve my originals" options) ... and no "Undo" possible here ;-)
These are nothing to do with the file modification times that I am talking about. Your examples are image metadata.

They are only ever modified by deliberate actions by the user, as far as I can see.
The first two have very definite meanings and would only need changing if the data is not already automatically available, for example a scanned film or print, where "data taken" needs to be derived manually from some other source of information. Or if a camera's clock was wrong.

I am not sure what "EXIF: Date modified" refers to, but I have a vague recollection that it is not very useful.

Re: 0.64 MP ignores file saving settings

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:31 am
by oops66
Your examples are image metadata.
... Yes I talking about images files (and for .mie sidecar files it should be possible too)
...But don't forget than the main goal is also to centralize the embedded metadata options ... if not, it's the mess ;-)
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