ICC profile color correction doesn't seem to work

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riemenschneider
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ICC profile color correction doesn't seem to work

Post by riemenschneider »

I was very excited about the icc-profile feature, but now I am disappointed: I doesn't seem to work. I tested JPEGs and TIFF containing IC profiles. The ICC-Color-Profiles were embedded unsing Corel Photo-Paint 12 and Nikon View Editor. Both applications render the images correctly. I cannot see any differences in display betweeen xnview 1.82.4 and 1.90 beta 1. I have switched on the ICC-option in Options->General. Do I make any mistake? Do you know that problem? Do you need any testfiles? During my tests I came to the question: who tells xnview what the output device (monitor) "looks like"? Does it use the color management settings of the Windows display properties?

Tested on Windows XP SP2

best regards,
riemenschneider

V 1.90 <x>
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Olivier_G
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Post by Olivier_G »

I believe XnView manages ICC profiles by simply converting them toward sRGB for display. You will see the difference if you use other ICC embedded profiles like AdobeRGB. Check that message... it works... :D

This being said, XnView is not able to use a specific profile (made with a hardware colorimeter) to have really accurate display.

My opinion on this point (edited):
- Few people would actually take advantage of this (hardware calibrator needed).
- Last time I asked for feedback about such a feature in a major photographic forum, I got no support... :(
- But... if adding conversion to a specific profile require not too much work from Pierre, I would support this suggestion for the following reasons: 1 = why stop halfway when you can get it all. 2 = This is a feature most expert/pro photographers care a lot for (and word of mouth might do wonders in this community about XnView).
Olivier
riemenschneider
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Post by riemenschneider »

Thank you Olivier_G for your response. Does that mean that XnView does not make use of the emedded profiles but only interprets the EXIF-Tag "Colorspace"?

But why does Nikon View and Photpaint show correct(ed) colors? (They look really realistic!) In Photopaint I get the same (uncorrected) results as in XnView when I disable usage of the monitor's ICC profile.

There are special Color Management Settings in Photopaint and Nikon View. And I have assigend the ICC-Profile of my monitor in Windows display properties. Windows fax and image viewer is supposed to be colormanagment-aware. And there the images look the same as in XnView (both versions). I dont think that's normal!? Do I make any mistakes? Double correction or something like that?

I am really confused...
riemenschneider
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Post by Olivier_G »

Use the previous linked message: you can download two samples (one in AdobeRGB, the other in sRGB) => check whether you see the difference without/with ICC option as illustrated in the picture (ie: different / identical).

"Color management aware" means that the program will be able to use the embedded ICC profile and convert it for display (accurate or not). XnView 1.90 handles this (=> AdobeRGB and sRGB of the same image will show the same thing).
What you are asking for (and what most serious photo/editing programs provide) is the ability to set an accurate monitor profile instead of the generic sRGB. Note that assigning the correct monitor profile in Windows display properties... just do nothing.
And to be sure: you have an hardware calibrator, right?
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riemenschneider
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Post by riemenschneider »

No, I don't have an hardware calibrator. I have:
  • an ICC profile for my monitor. Provided by the manufacturer. That profile is assigned to the monitor in Windows
    the ICC profile for my camera (that is more or less identical to sRGB as tested on www.iccview.de
In Photpaint the setting are:
  • Use the embedded camera-ICC-profile or, if no profile is embedded (the JPEG of my Camera have only an EXIF-Tag that says sRGB), use the camera-ICC-profile store in directory XYZ.
    Use the monitor profile for displaying
And the photos look nice.
In Nikon view I have not specified the monitor profile to use. I guess it takes the Windows settings because the display result is the same as in photopaint.

When an ICC-profile is embedded xnview takes 2-3 seconds to load the image. When no profile is embedded the image is displayed imediatelly. But the colors are the same (wrong) colors in both cases.

I guess I had an error in reasoning:
When Xnview only converts "not sRGB" to sRGB in my case no conversion will occur or at least would no be recognisable. When XnView doesn't care about what is send to my monitor it must be the same result XnView 1.82 or Windows fax and image viewer....Merci pour m'aider, Olivier! :)

But then the feature is nearly useless. Photografers who need AdobeRGB need of course an applications that does real colormanagement. In the actual state XnView is only able to show me: This is an image in AdobeRGB color space that cannot be displayed in it's true color. There are plenty of articels on the web that explain that normal monitors are not able to display the colors of AdobeRGB color space and therefore the use of AdobeRGB color space for "normal" fotografers is really questionable. (in englishin german)

But it is a step in the right direction :-) ,
riemenschneider
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Olivier_G
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Post by Olivier_G »

riemenschneider wrote:No, I don't have an hardware calibrator. I have an ICC profile for my monitor. Provided by the manufacturer.
OK, this is interesting.

The normal behaviour is as follow:
1. Calibration (hardware or eye) to correct the colors with a Loader program on startup. It will apply to all programs (ie: handled directly by the graphic card).
2. Profiling (hardware or manufacturer) to adapt colors to the Monitor gamut. It will be used only by Applications able to handle this profile (either directly specified or through Windows as it seems to be the case for Nikon View... :? ).
Calibration should have much more effect than Profiling, especially regarding tonal balance of the image (note: handling embedded ICC profiles - like XnView - is yet another issue).

-> An hardware calibrator (and its software) will measure/correct 1 and 2.
-> An eye tool (like AdobeGamma in Photoshop, Quickgamma...) will do 1, approximately. You should then use sRGB, a Manufacturer profile or try QuickMonitorProfile to do 2. However, do not expect wonders with that setup (especially on profiling).

But in some situations, the Monitor profile tries to do both 1+2 directly: it means that applications not able to use this specific profile won't be profiled nor calibrated.
I don't know exactly what is your situation, but if you don't use a calibration tool (no loader service at startup?) and experience major tonal changes when you change from sRGB to Monitor profile in your editing software, I think you are in this case (and XnView's new ICC profile conversion feature won't help you much, as it doesn't handle a specific Monitor profile: your system won't have any calibration).
If so, I would recommend to give a try to QuickGamma and QuickMonitorProfile (both free), although they may be a bit complex and give so-so results on LCDs. Another solution is to ask Pierre for handling specific Monitor profile in XnView, as it should solve your issue as well.
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Post by Olivier_G »

Pierre: for 'Use embedded ICC Profile', can you implement a dropdown list to select a specific destination Profile (instead of sRGB)... for 1.90?
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Post by xnview »

Olivier_G wrote:Pierre: for 'Use embedded ICC Profile', can you implement a dropdown list to select a specific destination Profile (instead of sRGB)... for 1.90?
No, currently i can't
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Post by Olivier_G »

Ok -> postponed.
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Post by ApertureNine »

XNView HAVE to support monitor profiles. After calibrating my screen and enjoying the benefits in Photoshop, I suddenly noticed that XNView did not display my images correctly. The ICC profile support is painstakingly slow, but it is not enough. Monitor profile support has to follow.

I can't use XNView anymore because of that. Had to switch to ACDSee Pro.

There are tons of image viewers out there, and yet only a few supports real image viewing by both supporting ICC profiles and monitor profiles. Calibrators such as Spyder2Express is mainstream equipment now, so support for monitor profiles in image viewers is mandatory now.

Thanks for a great program.
max gabler
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monitor profiles

Post by max gabler »

ApertureNine wrote:XNView HAVE to support monitor profiles. After calibrating my screen and enjoying the benefits in Photoshop, I suddenly noticed that XNView did not display my images correctly. The ICC profile support is painstakingly slow, but it is not enough. Monitor profile support has to follow.

I can't use XNView anymore because of that. Had to switch to ACDSee Pro.

There are tons of image viewers out there, and yet only a few supports real image viewing by both supporting ICC profiles and monitor profiles. Calibrators such as Spyder2Express is mainstream equipment now, so support for monitor profiles in image viewers is mandatory now.

Thanks for a great program.
I can only vote seriously for this feature

- with the use of the standard monitor profile xnview would be everything I look for

- without it its not usable

I can only suggest to implement this feature befor doing anything else on the program or all serious phtographic users will cease to use it.

Looking forward to finally see the use of the profile imlemented

THX in advance
JimMike
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ICC Profile support

Post by JimMike »

I think demand for true color profile support may increase with the increase of wide gamut monitors on the market. I'd love to find a very simply image viewer that supports my calibrated color profile (and does not assume sRGB display). I have complex image viewers that already do this. What I need is a fast tool to replace Windows Picture Viewer, since it is not color correct. It seems that XnView will not support this feature in the near term. If anyone knows of some other app that does the job, can you please let me know? Thanks! PS: I've heard of fast picture viewer, but it's "free-ness" is dubious. If a sell a single photograph, is it no longer "home" use?
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