Various alpha-related concerns

[JohnFredC]

I love XnView. Pierre tries harder than any other developer (that I am aware of) to incorporate as many of our requests as possible in each successive version of XnView. For that I (and many others) are very grateful. What a wonderful tool XnView has become!

But... there are very many valid (meaning: useful in a tool such as XnView) requests! Pierre has already included a large number of them in the latest version, as he generously does in nearly every version. But there are so many more yet to go: just glance at the "Global Request & Suggestion list".

The point I am trying to make is that many of the requests (IPTC editing would be an example, Categories being another) involve such complex user interaction with the software that a "greatly less than ideal" implementation would be bad for XnView.

I am struggling to say this in the right way, but the current alpha direction for including some of the new functionality (the various trees: Categories, Favorites, etc. and the tabs on the Preview for properties, etc) just doesn't feel "right" to me. Too many pieces that don't work smoothly together, I guess.

XnView has had such an elegant interface in the past... elegant in both its simplicity AND power. For instance, I really like the "hide/show" little buttons on the splitters in the browser. That's elegant design. But something about the panels-within-tabs-within-panels-within-tabs approach (specifically) is both visually cluttered and somehow too modal in actual use. Perhaps more non-modal design would work better?

Sorry for voicing a vague complaint without offering a suggestion for improvement and I do acknowledge the difficulty in doing it "right" (I write software for a living, too). It just seems to me that the next round of XnView functionality enhancement is at a different level/paradigm of task/complexity/interaction and needs to be thought about very carefully before it becomes part of production XnView.

As always, thanks for listening! And thanks for a great tool!

[Olivier_G]

It just seems to me that the next round of XnView functionality enhancement is at a different level/paradigm of task/complexity/interaction and needs to be thought about very carefully before it becomes part of production XnView.

I fully agree. XnView shouldn't become a collection-box of features for geeks...

I haven't been very active lately (except on spam... ) but I'll try to review some of the new features and provide some suggestions (=> interface, simplicity, efficiency). I even wonder wether 1.90 shouldn't stay longer in Alpha stage to improve interface...

[Clo]

—> JohnFredC

Hello John !

• I agree globally… I have to admit that I've the same feeling very often…

- Some extra-features are not very useful for the majority of the users; those you quote lead certainly to things
"Neither done, nor to to", like we say in French.

• Much more important changes might have priority, for instance the system of languages to switch as text files…
- I spent ten hours today, just to patch¦repair¦complete the translation¦correct a lot of thingies in the new French DLL for 1.90 Alpha 3… while I rarely work more than one hour to update the language-files of TC for major upgrades…
- This issue is pending for ages, and we got just a tiny progress with the EXIF translation and now with the <NeroCD.lng> and <Plugin.lng>, ant steps regarding the rest to change…

BTW : Did you find the new “Grid Settings” in Alpha 3 ? It's like I say above…

KR
Claude
Clo

[JohnFredC]

Hi Clo...

I understand your point of view and agree.

However, when one's specific request appears in a new version of XnView, it certainly warms the heart. That new variable grid is very useful to me (thanks Pierre!) and a first step toward using XnView for image analysis, so I really like the new grid settings and am very glad to have them.

[Clo]

Hi John !

• I didn't mean that the grid settings and features are bad, but simply that they are far of those you quoted
for a real professional use - so, for you- …
- It's quite sufficient for me, since it contains that I requested…
- I just miss the caption for the colour-button
- I have added one though, but "static" (inactive), to improve …

• There is a progress too about the buttons of the tool-bar, but currently, we miss the flexibility we have in TC…
- Most certainly, one can change a skin and its covering extra-icons (choosing the *.bar file), but to prepare several different *.bar files is not a piece of cake for newbies (even a couple of bars only…)

- I hope that we'll improve this a bit when the ß 1 is there !

Kind regards,
Claude
Clo

[JohnFredC]

Hello again Clo

In my opinion Beta 1 should be a long way in the future IF Pierre attempts to include IPTC editing, Categories, etc. in XnView.

Those additions (and others in the suggestion list) blur the line between XnView as an image Viewer and XnView as an Image Data Manager.

Data management requires a different paradigm of user interaction from a passive tool such as a viewer. Data entry (such as for IPTC / EXIF / XMP editing) is an entire subcategory of user interface for which some models of interaction work better than others.

It remains to be seen what would work best for XnView. The current implementation (panels-tabs-panels-tabs-panels), even acknowledging its unfinished state, probably won't work well for me.

I'll think about this some more and try to contribute suggestions for something better.

[xnview]

I am struggling to say this in the right way, but the current alpha direction for including some of the new functionality (the various trees: Categories, Favorites, etc. and the tabs on the Preview for properties, etc) just doesn't feel "right" to me. Too many pieces that don't work smoothly together, I guess.

XnView has had such an elegant interface in the past... elegant in both its simplicity AND power. For instance, I really like the "hide/show" little buttons on the splitters in the browser. That's elegant design. But something about the panels-within-tabs-within-panels-within-tabs approach (specifically) is both visually cluttered and somehow too modal in actual use. Perhaps more non-modal design would work better?

What is the problem with the interface?
Why "Too many pieces that don't work smoothly together"??
And if you don't want tabs (tree or preview) you can easily hide them...

[xnview]

- This issue is pending for ages, and we got just a tiny progress with the EXIF translation and now with the <NeroCD.lng> and <Plugin.lng>, ant steps regarding the rest to change…

These .lng are used by plugins, do you translate all plguisn for TC

[xnview]

Those additions (and others in the suggestion list) blur the line between XnView as an image Viewer and XnView as an Image Data Manager.

Data management requires a different paradigm of user interaction from a passive tool such as a viewer. Data entry (such as for IPTC / EXIF / XMP editing) is an entire subcategory of user interface for which some models of interaction work better than others.

Yes, i don't want to make a Data Manager, but a viewer with extra features to organise (I have another project for a true Data Management).

[Troken]

Those additions (and others in the suggestion list) blur the line between XnView as an image Viewer and XnView as an Image Data Manager.

In my opinion, the connection of viewing and managing an imagebank is very necessary (maybe even unseparable). I do not understand concerns about providing users with proper tools for managing the images, it is one main feature which should evolve, making XnView even better for hanling great amounts of images. JFC, maybe I didn't fully understand the concerns about this matter, but I can not imagine viewing without good managing features. Personally, its a priority, not only to view all images, but to handle them, managing and sort them. It can be nice data entry tools (IPTC,EXIF,XMP) or just simple but smart tools to rename or sorting the images; either way, users should get all alternatives.

If a user do not need the managing-part, XnView is still one of the best viewers, so it fills both needs.

[JohnFredC]

Troken wrote:

JFC, maybe I didn't fully understand the concerns about this matter, but I can not imagine viewing without good managing features.

There is a difference between managing files and managing the contents of files. Graphics editing or text editing require a different kind of interface from File management (moving, coping, renaming, navigating folders, etc.).

I am having difficulty explaining this.

[Troken]

There is a difference between managing files and managing the contents of files. Graphics editing or text editing require a different kind of interface from File management (moving, coping, renaming, navigating folders, etc.).

I am having difficulty explaining this.

Well, I'm eager to understand. If you mean advanced editing of the contents (the actual pixels of the image), I agree and wouldn't recommend XnView to try becoming a program for handling it. Better use a proffesional program like PhotoShop for advanced managing. Or use of plug-ins and filters.

[JohnFredC]

What is the problem with the interface?
Why "Too many pieces that don't work smoothly together"??
And if you don't want tabs (tree or preview) you can easily hide them...

Hi Pierre...

I am having trouble explaining my problem with the nested tabs/panels approach, so maybe this suggestion for improvement will help everyone understand what I am trying to say. Here is a way I think would work better:

1. Combine Favorites, Folders, Categories into a single tree (no tabs).

The Tree hierarchy would show (not necessarily in this order):

Code: Select all

>Categories
----SubCategory Folder1
---------Category A
---------Category B
----Category C
----Category D
----Etc.
>Favorites
----SubFavorite Folder1
---------Favorite A
---------Favorite B
----Favorite C
----Favorite D
----SubFavorite Folder2
----Etc.
>Filters
----Filter Folder1
--------Filter A
--------Filter B
----Filter Folder2
--------Filter C
----Filter D
----Etc.
>Folders
----Desktop
---------My Documents
---------My Computer
---------Etc.
>Slide Shows
----Slide Show1
----Slide Show2

The Favorites and Filter button/menu items in the mini-toolbar should remain.

The tree would be more complicated, but the rest of the interface much simpler. The tree is the navigator and is a hierarchy management tool. Categories, Favorites, Filters, Folders, and Slideshows are all hierarchical-type data, aid navigation, and should reside in the navigation tree. Why present hierarchical data, but implemented in different ways (tabs AND tree)? Put all hierarchical navigation and filtering data in the tree.

2. Put EXIF IPTC etc. into sub-panels of the Browser AND the Viewer, not the Preview panel. (no tabs).

My reasoning for this suggestion is that EXIF, IPTC, etc do not belong to the Image, they belong to the File. Also, I might like to look at the Preview AND the EXIF data simultaneously on the screen.

3. Add a new panel called Categories as a sub panel of the Browser (not the Preview).

This panel would show all Categories with check boxes to indicate a selected image (or images) membership in each category.

Placing the "data" panels (Bitmap data, EXIF data, IPTC data, Category membership data, etc.) at the same "level" in the interface makes the interface more "modeless". They are all attributes (or fields, in database terminology) of the selected file. A user could select groups of files and assign a category with 1 click, or change the file date for all at once, etc.

Lots of specific implementation issues to work out with this schema and some of it might not work exactly as described, but I know some version of it would work better for me than the current approach.

As always thanks for listening and for your patience with my verbosity.

[xnview]

What is the problem with the interface?
Why "Too many pieces that don't work smoothly together"??
And if you don't want tabs (tree or preview) you can easily hide them...

Hi Pierre...

I am having trouble explaining my problem with the nested tabs/panels approach, so maybe this suggestion for improvement will help everyone understand what I am trying to say. Here is a way I think would work better:

1. Combine Favorites, Folders, Categories into a single tree (no tabs).

The Tree hierarchy would show (not necessarily in this order):

Code: Select all

>Categories
----SubCategory Folder1
---------Category A
---------Category B
----Category C
----Category D
----Etc.
>Favorites
----SubFavorite Folder1
---------Favorite A
---------Favorite B
----Favorite C
----Favorite D
----SubFavorite Folder2
----Etc.
>Filters
----Filter Folder1
--------Filter A
--------Filter B
----Filter Folder2
--------Filter C
----Filter D
----Etc.
>Folders
----Desktop
---------My Documents
---------My Computer
---------Etc.
>Slide Shows
----Slide Show1
----Slide Show2

The Favorites and Filter button/menu items in the mini-toolbar should remain.

The tree would be more complicated, but the rest of the interface much simpler. The tree is the navigator and is a hierarchy management tool. Categories, Favorites, Filters, Folders, and Slideshows are all hierarchical-type data, aid navigation, and should reside in the navigation tree. Why present hierarchical data, but implemented in different ways (tabs AND tree)? Put all hierarchical navigation and filtering data in the tree.

Yes, i thought of doing that, but for me it's too complicated for basic user, and not very useable. Some software have that, and i don't like it. But i agree that Favorites & Categories must be in same panel!!
What do you think about to have 2 tabs??

2. Put EXIF IPTC etc. into sub-panels of the Browser AND the Viewer, not the Preview panel. (no tabs).

My reasoning for this suggestion is that EXIF, IPTC, etc do not belong to the Image, they belong to the File. Also, I might like to look at the Preview AND the EXIF data simultaneously on the screen.

Really on a new panel? I think that it's not very good to have many panel.
But perhaps i am mistaken!
And yes currently you can't view picture AND EXIF/IPTC!
I don't know which is the best solution...

[nightflyer]

1. How to easy navigate in such big tree? You need to scroll alot and look for items.
2. You can, use viewer. It is even better because you see bigger image.

-=nightflyer=-