Suggestion for Selection Ratio

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Olivier_G
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Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by Olivier_G » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:08 am

First: this feature is an excellent thing.

A suggestion: instead of separating Vertical ratios/sizes and Horizontal ones, just provide one list with 3 options below: "Horizontal", "Vertical", "Follow image orientation" (and if x=y for the image, choose horizontal).

With some standards ratios, it would look as:

Selection Ratio:
- Free
- 1.00 [1:1]
- 1.25 [5:4]
- 1.29 [US Letter] (Note: =11/8.5)
- 1.33 [4:3]
- 1.41 [ISO A4, A3...] (Note: =√2)
- 1.50 [3:2]
- 1.78 [16:9]
- 1.85 (cinema]
- 2.00 [2:1]
- 2.35 (cinema)
[Custom]
- Save
- Load
*
- Horizontal
- Vertical
- Follow image orientation

Olivier
PS: I am less enthousiastic about the "Selection Size" feature (mainly due to "dpi" usefulness)

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helmut
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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by helmut » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:20 pm

Olivier_G wrote:A suggestion: instead of separating Vertical ratios/sizes and Horizontal ones, just provide one list with 3 options below: "Horizontal", "Vertical", "Follow image orientation" (and if x=y for the image, choose horizontal).
Very good idea. Having all the ratios twice is not nice. With a hotkey to simply toggle the orientation of the selection, this would be perfect, I think.

Also, there could be one menu item with a ratio which is simply the same ratio as the original image. The menu item "Custom" is probably often used, so I'd position it near the top of the menu.

The sub menu "Set selection ratio" might look like this:

- Free
- Same as image
-------------------------------
- Custom
- Save selection as custom
-------------------------------
- 1.00 [1:1]
- 1.25 [5:4]
- 1.29 [US Letter] (Note: =11/8.5)
- 1.33 [4:3]
- 1.41 [ISO A4, A3...] (Note: =√2)
- 1.50 [3:2]
- 1.78 [16:9]
- 1.85 (cinema]
- 2.00 [2:1]
- 2.35 (cinema)

In the menu "Edit", the menu item for toggling the orientation of the selection (Portrait/Landscape) could be added. The menu "Edit" would then look like this:

...
Select all
Select none
Toggle selection orientation Ctrl+<Hotkey>
Set selection size >
Set selection ratio >
...

Olivier_G wrote:PS: I am less enthousiastic about the "Selection Size" feature (mainly due to "dpi" usefulness)
I don't like the Selection size, either, and have never used it. According to Pierre it's needed for printing images, but I think it's only a workaround for some limitation in printing.

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by Olivier_G » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:26 pm

helmut wrote:With a hotkey to simply toggle the orientation of the selection, this would be perfect, I think. Also, there could be one menu item with a ratio which is simply the same ratio as the original image.
Great additions.

I still think that the "Follow image orientation" option would be interesting: when you want to prepare your pictures for printing (A4 or...), you wouldn't even have to switch orientation at all (I know that shortcut is fast, but Mums&Dads don't use them :mrgreen:).

It would also be nice to keep the Ratio/Size settings, even when you close the viewer and open an image again after browsing.

Olivier

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by helmut » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:00 pm

Olivier_G wrote:...
Great additions.
I still think that the "Follow image orientation" option would be interesting: when you want to prepare your pictures for printing (A4 or...), you wouldn't even have to switch orientation at all (I know that shortcut is fast, but Mums&Dads don't use them :mrgreen:).
Now I understand what you mean:

The menu items
-------------------------------
Landscape (Your "Horizontal")
Portrait (Your "Vertical")
Same as image's orientation Your "Follow image orientation"
-------------------------------
work like radiobuttons and exclude each other (=only one is active at a time). And by default, the user has "Use image's orientation". Very useful, I think.
Olivier_G wrote:It would also be nice to keep the Ratio/Size settings, even when you close the viewer and open an image again after browsing.
Some people like it the way it is (selection setting lost when closing image), some like if the selection setting is kept. So an option would be good so that each user can decide him/herself.

Would be really cool if this all made it into the next XnView release (1.76). I'll push Pierre a bit...

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by Olivier_G » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:41 pm

helmut wrote:Now I understand what you mean:
The menu items
-------------------------------
Landscape (Your "Horizontal")
Portrait (Your "Vertical")
Same as image's orientation Your "Follow image orientation"
-------------------------------
work like radiobuttons and exclude each other (=only one is active at a time). And by default, the user has "Use image's orientation".
Exactly... :D

A hotkey could still be usefull:
- If you have selected "Landscape", it will switch to "Portrait" (and the other way round).
- If you have selected "Same as image's orientation", it will switch temporary to 90° angle. It will get back to "Same as image's orientation" as soon as you change image, close the viewer, use the hotkey again or reselect "Same as image's orientation"). Useful to quickly change selection for a particular picture, while keeping the fast workflow down the road... 8)

Olivier

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by helmut » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:03 pm

Olivier_G wrote:A hotkey could still be usefull:
- If you have selected "Landscape", it will switch to "Portrait" (and the other way round).
- If you have selected "Same as image's orientation", it will switch temporary to 90° angle. It will get back to "Same as image's orientation" as soon as you change image, close the viewer, use the hotkey again or reselect "Same as image's orientation"). Useful to quickly change selection for a particular picture, while keeping the fast workflow down the road...
Sounds all very good, sensible, and useful to me. :-)

One minor thing:
Perhaps sorting the menu items by ratio would be more intuitive and make selecting a specific ratio easier:

- 1:1 [1.00]
- 2:1 [2.00]
- 3:2 [1.50]
- 4:3 [1.33]
- 5:4 [1.25]
- 16:9 [1.78]
- US Letter [1.29]
- ISO A4, A3, ... [1.41]
- Cinema 1 [1.85]
- Cinema 2 [2.35]

Think most people know that normal photographs are 3:2, but I doubt that they know that the ratio is 1.50. So they look for 3:2, not for 1.50 in the list of ratios. But I'm not so sure about this one.
Last edited by helmut on Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by Olivier_G » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:01 pm

helmut wrote:Think most people know that normal photographs are 3:2, but I doubt that they know that the ratio is 1.50. So they look for 3:2, not for 1.50 in the list of ratios. But I'm not so sure about this one.
You are quite right.

Small things:
- "ISO (A4, A3...)" above "US Letter", please :mrgreen:
- I would say "Cinemascope & Panavision" for 2.35 and "Academy Flat" for 1.85 but not quite sure here...

Some links:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_216
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_film

Olivier

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by helmut » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:04 pm

Olivier_G wrote:Small things:
- "ISO (A4, A3...)" above "US Letter", please :mrgreen:
Yes, agreed. In Germany we say "DIN A4", for example, is it "ISO A4" in other countries?
Olivier_G wrote:- I would say "Cinemascope & Panavision" for 2.35 and "Academy Flat" for 1.85 but not quite sure here...
In your Wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_film I find "35mm anamorphic" for 2.35 ratio. Pretty confusing all these formats.
Perhaps some "insiders" can help, here.

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by Olivier_G » Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:37 pm

helmut wrote:In Germany we say "DIN A4", for example, is it "ISO A4" in other countries?
In France, we just say "A4" (or "feuille A4", "format A4"). I know that the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has created the ISO-216 standard based on the work by the Deutsches Institut für Normung (DIN) for standardization of paper size (A4, etc...).
=> "A4, A3..." would probably just be fine and self-explanatory.
helmut wrote:In your Wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_film I find "35mm anamorphic" for 2.35 ratio. Pretty confusing all these formats. Perhaps some "insiders" can help, here.
Anamorphic is just a technology to widen optically the angle of view while filming and screening (ratio is compressed on the film). There are actually a lot of formats in cinema that use those ratios (and many others as well).
=> Maybe we could just use "1.85" and "2.35", then ?

Olivier
PS: Yes, I know: I simplified the complex propositions I made myself earlier... hey, that's life... :mrgreen:

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by helmut » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:00 pm

Olivier_G wrote:
helmut wrote:In Germany we say "DIN A4", for example, is it "ISO A4" in other countries?
In France, we just say "A4" (or "feuille A4", "format A4"). I know that the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has created the ISO-216 standard based on the work by the Deutsches Institut für Normung (DIN) for standardization of paper size (A4, etc...).
=> "A4, A3..." would probably just be fine and self-explanatory.
Thank you for explaining the France situation. I doubt that we will have individual strings for every language for the ratios, so I suggest to use "ISO Letter (A4, A3, ...)".
Olivier_G wrote:=> Maybe we could just use "1.85" and "2.35", then ?

PS: Yes, I know: I simplified the complex propositions I made myself earlier... hey, that's life...
Seems to be difficult with the naming of these formats. Perhaps we just wait a bit and see whether an insider/expert reads this and posts the right names, here. As interim solution I suggest to use "Cinema 1 and Cinema 2", see below.

Our discussion about the submenu currently summarizes to:

- 1:1 (1.00)
- 2:1 (2.00)
- 3:2 (1.50)
- 4:3 (1.33)
- 5:4 (1.25)
- 16:9 (1.78)
- ISO Letter A4, A3, ... (1.41)
- US Letter (1.29)
- Cinema 1 (1.85)
- Cinema 2 (2.35)

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Agreed, except one thing :)

Post by Olivier_G » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:18 pm

helmut wrote:...so I suggest to use "ISO Letter (A4, A3, ...)".
It would be better to avoid the word "Letter" here... as "US Letter" is also known as simply "Letter" => "ISO Letter" would be more confusing for US people, I guess.
helmut wrote:As interim solution I suggest to use "Cinema 1 and Cinema 2", see below.
OK.

Olivier

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by xnview » Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:41 pm

helmut wrote: Our discussion about the submenu currently summarizes to:

- 1:1 (1.00)
- 2:1 (2.00)
- 3:2 (1.50)
- 4:3 (1.33)
- 5:4 (1.25)
- 16:9 (1.78)
- ISO Letter A4, A3, ... (1.41)
- US Letter (1.29)
- Cinema 1 (1.85)
- Cinema 2 (2.35)
I have a 7:9 ratio too.
I like the idea of "Follow image orientation", but by using such menu you must choose orientation and after ratio. I like the one click...
How can make this menu more clearly??
Pierre.

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by Olivier_G » Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:56 pm

xnview wrote:I like the idea of "Follow image orientation", but by using such menu you must choose orientation and after ratio. I like the one click...
How can make this menu more clearly??
You don't necessarily need to choose Orientation first:
You may just show 1 fixed list all the time (as: 1:1; 2:1; 3:2; 4:3; 5:4; 9:7; 16:9; "A4, A3..."; US Letter; Cinema 1; Cinema 2) without refreshing the Menu list upon Orientation Choice. People would know and look for the Ratio as (longer side:shorter side) whatever the Orientation...
This way, one could choose Orientation or Ratio with one single click.

No? (or is there something I misunderstood in your post? :( )

Olivier

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by helmut » Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:44 am

Olivier_G wrote:You don't necessarily need to choose Orientation first:
You may just show 1 fixed list all the time (as: 1:1; 2:1; 3:2; 4:3; 5:4; 9:7; 16:9; "A4, A3..."; US Letter; Cinema 1; Cinema 2) without refreshing the Menu list upon Orientation Choice. People would know and look for the Ratio as (longer side:shorter side) whatever the Orientation...
This way, one could choose Orientation or Ratio with one single click.
In some other words: The group for orientation

- Landscape
- Portrait
- Same as image's orientation

is independant of the actual selection ratio. Always, one of the three options for orientation is active.

As Olivier pointed out, there's one click needed only to have a selection with the images current ratio and orientation.

Note:
When re-doing "Selection ratio", it would be good to change the sub menu "Selection size", accordingly.

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Re: Suggestion for Selection Ratio

Post by xnview » Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:23 am

helmut wrote:
Olivier_G wrote:You don't necessarily need to choose Orientation first:
You may just show 1 fixed list all the time (as: 1:1; 2:1; 3:2; 4:3; 5:4; 9:7; 16:9; "A4, A3..."; US Letter; Cinema 1; Cinema 2) without refreshing the Menu list upon Orientation Choice. People would know and look for the Ratio as (longer side:shorter side) whatever the Orientation...
This way, one could choose Orientation or Ratio with one single click.
In some other words: The group for orientation

- Landscape
- Portrait
- Same as image's orientation

is independant of the actual selection ratio. Always, one of the three options for orientation is active.

As Olivier pointed out, there's one click needed only to have a selection with the images current ratio and orientation.

Note:
When re-doing "Selection ratio", it would be good to change the sub menu "Selection size", accordingly.
Yes, i understand. But for example, orientation is portrait. I want to make selection of 3:2 ratio, i must change orientation, and then choose the ratio!
Pierre.

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