Non-Destructive Editing

Ideas for improvements and requests for new features in XnView MP

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m.Th.
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Non-Destructive Editing

Post by m.Th. »

Nowadays we have in Batch Edit the following process:

For each selected file the program will do:

1. Open the source file
2. Apply the sequence of the Actions defined in the Actions tab (see bellow)
3. Automatically Save the file in the destination dir with the specified format

What if we will have the same Actions engine in the Editor?

In fact it is the same code, without the opening and saving the file.

Something like this:
Non-distructive-Editing 2.jpg
...also if one wants to be a real geek ;), he would add an optional (auto-hide?) strip of thumbnails like in the Compare window (perhaps is easier) or in Full Screen mode (F11) which will auto-hide in order to allow a more streamlined workflow - something like this: (see the thumbs on the left and the non-distructive editing controls on the right)
ZPS-RAW-Editing.jpg
Yes, it depicts Zoner Photo Studio's RAW editing module on my 2ndary monitor.

We can do that.
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JohnFredC
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Re: Non-Destructive Editing

Post by JohnFredC »

The new version 16 of Zoner has consolidated all of the adjustment panels, toolbars, selection menus, what have you, into a single tabbed sidebar panel in the Editor mode. It works extremely well and would be a good paradigm for MP to follow. (The image in m.Th.'s post above appears to be from Zoner 15).

My only problem with the new sidebar design is Zoner no longer offers "miniature previews" for adjustments. All adjustments are applied to the full image (which is zoomable during adjustment, BTW). If MP moves in this direction (adjustment sidebar panel) IMO the floating dialogs with miniature previews should remain as an option for users who want them.

[OT=Rant]
The Zoner 16 redesign has cut its browser off at the knees, moving it toward Lightroom's approach. No preview beside thumbs (only above a filmstrip), multiple Compares no longer available (Compare not in a tab anymore), no available preview at all in dual lister mode, etc.

I wish they had left the browser alone. It was almost as good as XnView MP's, but now is not nearly as good.

Plus they completely removed the fine histogram equalization adjustment, a tool of great power and finesse. "Confusing to the users", they told me.

"Progress", I guess. Or the marketing staff.

[/OT]
John
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m.Th.
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Re: Non-Destructive Editing

Post by m.Th. »

The new version 16 of Zoner has consolidated all of the adjustment panels, toolbars, selection menus, what have you, into a single tabbed sidebar panel in the Editor mode. It works extremely well and would be a good paradigm for MP to follow.
Yes. But the important thing to note (in fact the topic at hand) is that in the 'Edit' mode they forces you to press 'Apply' after making a very small group of adjustments. In fact it is the same thing (eg. the Brightness/Contrast/HLS window) but moved on the side. IMHO XnView et al. (including ZPS in RAW mode) has a much better approach by leaving you to change all the parameters (filters, rotation etc.) before pressing 'Apply'. Also, the best and standard in RAW editing is to save these edits in XMP sidecars so you can do multiple edits, reset them etc. because in fact the RAW is unchanged. But this is for the next stage.
(The image in m.Th.'s post above appears to be from Zoner 15).
Ok, ok... :)
ZPS-16-Editing.jpg
Better now? :)
My only problem with the new sidebar design is Zoner no longer offers "miniature previews" for adjustments.
Why? Do you have a slow computer? You know that you can push the calculations to GPU, right? (...hint, Pierre, hint...)

Besides "miniature previews" perhaps he can use a proxy (IOW a small resolution and/or resampled image instead of the full res one).
All adjustments are applied to the full image (which is zoomable during adjustment, BTW).
(Emphasis mine:) An absolute must. Pan and zoom. In fact having a non-destructive editing engine implies this.

About your rant:

ISTM that they rely heavily on 2nd monitor. Ok, it is the trend. All VGAs are today at least dual-head. To have a very good support for 2ndrary monitor is a must IMHO.

That said, yes, I think that the new browser (Manager how they call it) redesign, generally, is a step back from a pro's POV. But having two monitors somewhat I can live with it. One of the biggest pains is, indeed, the compare tab - now defunct.
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JohnFredC
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Re: Non-Destructive Editing

Post by JohnFredC »

Why? Do you have a slow computer?
I don't think so: Core I7 with 8GB and a hybrid drive with a 15GB solid state buffer. But I'm a panorama nut and a typical image for me >100Mb. Esp. for such things as noise reduction (using the really excellent Zoner "Advanced Noise Reduction" dialog) a zoomed miniature makes the trial and error process faster than with the new design.
All adjustments are applied to the full image (which is zoomable during adjustment, BTW).
(Emphasis mine:) An absolute must. Pan and zoom. In fact having a non-destructive editing engine implies this.
Yes, a "must". I have a very long standing request here in the forum for making the current XnView adjustment dialogs modeless... (though I cannot seem to find the post! :? ).
About your rant:

ISTM that they rely heavily on 2nd monitor. Ok, it is the trend. All VGAs are today at least dual-head. To have a very good support for 2ndrary monitor is a must IMHO.
How does the new Zoner Manager design support a second monitor? Making the preview unavailable to the side of the thumbs panel (that is, locking it to the filmstrip) seems to work against using the "Manager" with two monitors...

What they really did was remove the option for users to drag and drop browser panels into new configurations, which killed the browser for me. I had 5 custom layouts I switched between frequently. Again, their response to my wailing about it was "Users got confused, it was a support issue".

Sigh.

My next display will be a 4k (3840x2160) monitor in the 40" range (instead of two monitors). The Chinese Seiki version is $699 on Amazon, though its update rate is only 30hz which is unacceptable.

Such a large monitor seems to me to be better served by the floating adjustment dialogs rather than a single panel " 'way over there on the right"... 8)
John
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m.Th.
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Re: Non-Destructive Editing

Post by m.Th. »

I don't think so: Core I7 with 8GB and a hybrid drive with a 15GB solid state buffer.
Image

...however if I were you I'd put at least 16 GB inside, especially if you're on Windows 7/8. Also, be sure to have a mobo which supports 32 GB. 8)
But I'm a panorama nut and a typical image for me >100Mb
What program do you use? Hugin? It would be very nice to have some integration between XnViewMP and Hugin. There are some buttons in Toolbar Customisation dialog saying 'AutoPano Giga / Pro' but nobody(?) knows what they're doing...
[...]Esp. for such things as noise reduction (using the really excellent Zoner "Advanced Noise Reduction" dialog) a zoomed miniature makes the trial and error process faster than with the new design.
Oh, yes. IMHO one of the best GUIs are the ones from Nik Software which includes a loupe (the "small preview" which you mention). See bellow a screenshot: (explanations after the break :) )
Nik-Color-Effex.jpg
1. Before/After screens (The XnV's Batch Engine has this already)
2. Zoom (one can zoom also with the mouse wheel and pan with mouse btn down and drag)
3. Our main topic: Non-distructive editing in a very similar manner with our XnView MP :)
4. Loupe - zoomed area under the mouse. The user can have the following options: Automatically apply the filter on the Loupe only & Automatically apply the filter "on the entire image" (of course, "on the entire image" means that it will show in the loupe also)
4,5 - As an aside, when one clicks on the loupe the pane toggles to the histogram representation and back.
How does the new Zoner Manager design support a second monitor? Making the preview unavailable to the side of the thumbs panel (that is, locking it to the filmstrip) seems to work against using the "Manager" with two monitors...
Off-topic, but anyway:

In the right "title bar" next to the main modules (Import | Manager | Editor ...) you have a button with a monitor and '2' inside. Click on it. It will show you another simple full-screen window on the 2ndary monitor with the same modules (defaulting the Viewer). Hence you have the Manager on the 1st (it is the only monitor on which works) and on the 2nd you have the preview.
[...] Again, their response to my wailing about it was "Users got confused, it was a support issue".

Sigh.
Sigh +1.

Limiting a program in a certain domain for the limited ones in that domain will make that program to be used only by those who have very limited needs & sights. :)

Geee.... I'm becoming very wise, isn't it? :)

But indeed the tendency is sad. Let's hope that XnView will be user friendly but not limited.

Such a large monitor seems to me to be better served by the floating adjustment dialogs rather than a single panel " 'way over there on the right"... 8)
hmmm... dunno... I worked for years with both paradigms: floating toolboxes and docked layouts both in programming and in graphics. While I was very used with the floating paradigm I think that the docked metaphor keeps the thing cleaner and easier to access. Perhaps that's why many programs had a transition from floating to docked rather than the opposite. Gimp, Photoshop, Quark / InDesign, Corel Draw/PhotoPaint, Blender, IDEs from Borland, Microsoft, Eclipse etc. come in mind at a quick glance. Also, you know that there is NO monitor big enough for your photo, isn't it? :)
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