Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cameras

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xnmen
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Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cameras

Post by xnmen »

I read nearly a dozen posts on issues about XnView acquiring (or importing) images from digital cameras (several quite long).
Still wasn't clear if it's possible to import them directly from cameras into XV.

Or if the best way is import / save them onto the HDD first (Windows), then access with XV?
But XV's browser doesn't show my Canon camera that (at the same time) is listed in Explorer's own UI.
It's not a big deal if XV can't import directly from USB devices - just might eliminate a step.

I kept seeing questions asked of the OPs, in posts on problems w/ Xv "seeing" their camera, about: "what do your other photo handling apps use - Twain, WIA?"
I know the meaning of those terms, but honestly - the other apps I've used to import images from cameras didn't ask (so I never had to choose). They just detected the camera, or at least could see the camera listed in Explorer.

Also, not sure what all XV "Media Detector" does, but it doesn't detect my camera - if that's one of it's functions.
Nor can I figure out how to open * any * images in Media Detector; even ones already saved to HDD.
Thanks.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

Could you please tell us the model of your Canon camera and which version of Windows you're on?
xnmen
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by xnmen »

Uh, oh... my Mama warned about people phishing for personal info.

It's a Canon power shot SX series;
Vista.

Are you suggesting either / or XV or Media Detector may not work correctly w/ certain cameras or OSes?
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

xnmen wrote:Are you suggesting either / or XV or Media Detector may not work correctly w/ certain cameras or OSes?
I don't know yet. That's what we're trying to find out.

Are we talking about Windows Vista 32- or 64-bit?

… if that's not too personal a question ;-)

<edit>

Is Add XnView to applications for USB events (camera, scan, ...) in Tools » Options... » System integration » Integration activated?
Can you access your cam through File » Acquire from Scanner or Camera (WIA)...?

</edit>
xnmen
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by xnmen »

OS: Vista 64.

I assume from your reply that XV often can detect connected cameras & import images?
A thought occurred - I'm using XV portable & storing settings in the .ini file. Don't know if that's related to this issue.

No, "Add Xnview to applications for USB events" isn't checked (by default, AFAIK).
But when I tried checking it & saving (hit OK), when I go back in, the box is unchecked. Again, don't know if the portable version is an issue.
But the "add to applications" part doesn't sound like that affects how XV itself behaves.

No, can't access the camera via File > Acquire from Scanner or Camera.
That gives message, "No WIA device found." Makes sense, since it doesn't show the camera in its browser.

Though MS Windows Photo Gallery sees / allows importing from the camera just fine, even Canon's image importing & manipulating app, "Zoom Browser," doesn't see the camera. But of course, the camera is present & files can be transferred using (at least) MS Photo Gallery.
I haven't used Zoom Browser in a long time - don't remember why. Could be corrupted or even needs an update. I just find it odd that neither it nor XnView can see the camera, when Explorer shows it.

Both XV's & Zoom Browser's "internal" file browser show everything that an Explorer window shows, EXCEPT the camera listing, which appears in Explorer after all the letter drives. In the browsers for XV & Zoom Browser, the camera is simply absent.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

xnmen wrote:I assume from your reply that XV often can detect connected cameras & import images?
Yes, …
… but there are exceptions to the rule.
ProgenyES (System Requirements » [url=http://www.progenyes.com/index.php/system-requirements#accordion-11-53e796b974f79]Unsupported Cameras[/url]) wrote:Not all Canon cameras support WIA which allows for remote capture.
SX series: SX200 IS, SX120 IS, SX10 IS, SX1 IS
The tool of choice for transferring photos is XnViewMediaDetector.exe.
CarlJ (photools.com Forums » [url=http://ptforum.photoolsweb.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=45343&page=2#number45437]OT: what memory card image offloader do you use?[/url]) wrote:The reason I opted not to use Downloader Pro was that I had to hack the registry to get DP to respond under autoplay with 64 bit Vista and there was no way of getting the application to simply open automatically when a CF card was inserted into the reader.

The XnView Media Detector sits in the task tray and comes to life whenever a card is inserted (much like the Lightroom Downloader) - which was all I wanted from Photo Mechanic, but no amount of Registry hacking ever got it to play.
xnmen wrote:I'm using XV portable & storing settings in the .ini file.
Sorry, gotta ask: Which version do you refer to when you say “portable”?
  1. XnView-win-small.zip/XnView-win.zip/XnView-win-full.zip
    Extracted from ZIP package (i.e. not installed via EXE setup) and configured to store all ancillary files in the same folder
  2. XnViewPortable_2.22.paf.exe
    Re-packaged by PortableApps.com
  3. XnViewU3.exe/XnView.u3p
    U3 edition (as linked to by Softpedia)
xnmen wrote:No, "Add Xnview to applications for USB events" isn't checked (by default, AFAIK).
But when I tried checking it & saving (hit OK), when I go back in, the box is unchecked. Again, don't know if the portable version is an issue.
Are the changed settings remembered if you run XnView as administrator?
xnmen wrote:Both XV's & Zoom Browser's "internal" file browser show everything that an Explorer window shows, EXCEPT the camera listing, which appears in Explorer after all the letter drives. In the browsers for XV & Zoom Browser, the camera is simply absent.
If Canon's own utilities cannot access the camera, …
… we have to dig deeper to find the culprit.
Jimatt (DP Review Forums » [url=http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3270527#forumsPostDetail42556027]ZoomBrowser won't auto-detect camera[/url]) wrote: Click the Start button , click All Programs, click Accessories, right-click Command Prompt, and then click Run as administrator. If you're prompted for an administrator password or confirmation, type the password or provide confirmation.

At the command prompt, type net start shellhwdetection , and then press Enter.

Restart your computer.

Once I restarted & plugged in my G12 a "connection manager-type window" opened and allowed me to change the settings for the connection. I selected CameraWindow and the autoplay now opens it as it did before.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

MS Knowledge Base ([url=http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927836]A digital still camera is not recognized in Windows Vista or in Windows XP[/url]) wrote: CAUSE

This problem occurs if the camera uses the Microsoft Windows Image Acquisition (WIA) standard to transfer pictures to the computer. Windows Vista and Windows XP SP2 use the Windows Portable Devices (WPD) standard instead of the WIA standard to import pictures and videos. The WPD standard supports many devices and device connectivity options.

RESOLUTION

To resolve this problem, configure the camera to use the Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) standard instead of the WIA standard. For information about how to configure the camera to use the PTP standard, see the owner's manual for the camera. Or, visit the camera manufacturer's Web site.
Well, isn't that special :x

Would you mind telling us the exact model?
xnmen
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by xnmen »

It's an SX100IS (image stabilization).
The XV is from http://www.xnview.com/en/xnview/#downloads - 2.22 - the extended for windows.

The xnview.ini file is in user\appdata\roaming\xnview\ (not in the program folder).

It doesn't solve the issue, but I now see that XV recognizes the camera (only that it exists), IF... I click File > Open, then navigate to the camera in XV's "open file" UI.
By that method XV will only allow opening "one image from this location." Though by this method, it shows all the folders on the camera, some containing many images.
Perhaps it's not possible to import all (or even several selected) images from cameras?
And media detector still doesn't detect any camera / images, even if it's already open in the systray, when the camera's 1st connected.

Just blank screen in MD, after R click its icon & "check digital camera & memory card."
Yes, if it detected / displayed detected images, there's an "Import" button on bottom, L of media detector UI. I guess that's what it's for.

"Remote Capture" isn't the same thing as transferring images from the camera via a USB cord.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowledg ... meras.html
Of course, I'm not doing Remote Capture - even though this model supports it.

I'm not sure that's right - about why (some) cameras aren't recognized in XP, Vista. i.e., Vista doesn't support WIA. That could be true, sometimes.
I think if you look at the MS article, it applied to Vista (not SP2). Why? Because it lists applicable products - XP SP2, but not SP2 for any Vista version.
But... as I said, Vista (Photo Gallery) recognizes the SX100IS - instantly... & imports pictures. (See more comments below).

* Also, the "Windows Image Acquisition (WIA)" service is listed in Services (as I typed it), activated, running & set to start automatically in (Vista) Windows Services. When there are new images to import, the "wiawow64.exe" file also started in task mgr. I believe either when the camera's "play / print" button was pressed (while connected by USB) and / or Photo Gallery was asked to import images from the camera.

* So Vista seems to support WIA in at least SP2, if not before. Dunno. WIA service is present, running... That doesn't mean Photo Gallery is using WIA to recognize the camera / import images (I'm not sure there's an easy way to find out what it uses). But I kinda think it is using WIA (based on other observations).

I could be wrong about some of this (don't want to give impression I'm a full expert on this). Except for things I can absolutely see.

One problem w/ zoom browser, may be that I don't have the latest ZB version (documentation claims support for Vista SP2 was added later).
I might? get ZoomBrowser to recognize the camera, but then I'd be little better off than using Windows utilities (at least to get images onto the HDD).
I was looking to eliminate apps required (& just use one, e.g., XV) to import & edit.

ZB is SO big (> 100MB D/L) & offers little that Vista doesn't. But this isn't about Zoom Browser (but some issues may be relevant to XV?).

* There is no configuring this camera to use PTP (or WIA). No settings for that.

* No, setting for "Add XnView to applications for USB events" is not saved, if it's started in Admin mode. But, still don't know what the part, "Add XnView to applications" has to do w/ what I'm trying to do.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

  • Windows Vista <Edition> 64-bit SP2
  • XnView Classic v2.22 extended/complete/full including MediaDetector
  • Canon PowerShot SX100 IS
xnmen wrote:So Vista seems to support WIA in at least SP2, if not before.
Smallvoid.com ([url=http://www.smallvoid.com/article/winnt-services-stisvc.html]Windows Image Acquisition (WIA)[/url]) wrote:Note Windows Vista (and XP SP2) comes with WIA ver. 2.0 which brings new features, but also breaks compatibility with devices and drivers using WIA ver. 1.0. Vista now uses the Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) which is part of the Windows Portable Devices (WPD) standard for transfering pictures instead of WIA.
xnview ([url=http://newsgroup.xnview.com/viewtopic.php?p=60977#p60977]XnView Media Detector[/url]) wrote:
Johan_et_Pirlouit wrote:1. I run XnView 1.93.4 on Win XP SP2, XnView recognize my Canon Powershot A630 as a WIA device (and everything works well) but Media Detector (1.6.1) doesn't "see" it at all :( .. Is it normal ? Or have I done something wrong : in the XnView settings, I did not check the "Add XnView as applications for USB events" option and I run Media Detector manually from the XnView main menu.
Currently MediaDetector doesn't use WIA device
Oh-Kay, so let's forget about WIA then :?

Buried Inside XnViewMediaDetector.exe, there's a function…
  • SHChangeNotifyRegister
    Registers a window to receive notifications from the file system or Shell, if the file system supports notifications.
… which leads me to believe that the program waits for a device to be mounted as a (removable) drive.
I also found a list of camera models sorted by brand:

Code: Select all

Canon PowerShot SX110 IS
Canon PowerShot SX1 IS
Canon PowerShot S3 IS
Canon PowerShot A720
Canon PowerShot A650
Canon PowerShot A640
Canon PowerShot A630
Canon PowerShot A620
Canon PowerShot A610
Canon PowerShot A470
Canon PowerShot S90
Canon PowerShot S70
Canon PowerShot S60
Canon PowerShot S50
Canon PowerShot S45
Canon PowerShot S40
Canon PowerShot S30
Canon PowerShot Pro90
Canon PowerShot Pro70
Canon PowerShot Pro1
Canon PowerShot G9
Canon PowerShot G6
Canon PowerShot G5
Canon PowerShot G3
Canon PowerShot G2
Canon PowerShot G1
Canon PowerShot G12
Canon PowerShot G11
Canon PowerShot G10
Canon PowerShot A5
Canon PowerShot A50
Canon PowerShot A530
Canon EOS
Canon EOS-1D
Canon EOS-1DS
Canon EOS-1D Mark II
Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Canon EOS-1D Mark III
Canon EOS-1D Mark IV
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III
Canon EOS 1000D
Canon EOS 550D
Canon EOS 500D
Canon EOS 450D
Canon EOS 400D
Canon EOS 350D
Canon EOS 300D
Canon EOS 60D
Canon EOS 50D
Canon EOS 40D
Canon EOS 30D
Canon EOS 20D
Canon EOS 20Da
Canon EOS 10D
Canon EOS 7D
Canon EOS 5D
Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Canon EOS D60
Canon EOS D30
Canon EOS D6000
Canon EOS D2000
I assume these are the ones known to and recognized by MediaDetector. Unfortunately, SX100 IS is missing :-|

Are there any errors in the Device Manager when the camera's hooked up to the PC?
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by xnmen »

Thanks for looking into this further - it's a lot of work, for an "educational experience." I've been trying to "grad-i-ate the 6th grade" on this, too.

It is Vista home prem. x64 - SP2. My SSN is 001-01-5555. My DOB is 01/01/1901.
WIA ver. 2.0 which brings new features, but also breaks compatibility with devices and drivers using WIA ver. 1.0.
Possibly - dunno. Depends on definition of "breaks."

IMPORTANT: As said, Explorer & Photo Gallery recognize the camera by make & model & import images.
That raises the question, if Explorer recognizes the camera, then is the issue w/ XV & any other software not recognizing it a Windows problem (or drivers therein), or a software problem (where they can't "find" the camera, even manually clicking "acquire camera," or equiv.)? Dunno.

Does XV even use WPD in Vista or any Windows? All I see in XV's menu is mention of WIA. But, see comment below about WIA & my Vista.
I'm confused - the quote says,
Currently MediaDetector doesn't use WIA device
Don't know who said that (a drunk poster? or Pierre?). EITHER way, there seem to be contradictions.
Besides, I'm trying to manually connect to the camera via XV's menu, where it clearly tells me it "Didn't find a connected WIA device."
*For XV* (not media detector), if it doesn't use WIA, then why does the menu selection say, "Acquire from scanner or camera (WIA)?"
Vista now uses the Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) which is part of the Windows Portable Devices (WPD) standard for transfering pictures instead of WIA
but as I pointed out, the service for WIA is clearly identified as present & running in Windows Services.
Also, when one of the programs to download images from the camera was running, the "wiaWOW64.exe" file was also started.

So, I don't know which method is being used - when files are actually transferred. If it's really using PTP (WPD), there sure are a lot of things with "WIA" running in my Vista. :?:

* NO... there aren't any errors in Device Mgr - for portable dev. But, the camera (connected & on) isn't identified by name. Only "digital still camera."
* But, on Canon's site > Driver & Software D/L: says "no drivers are required for this camera & Vista."
* The article you linked about uninstalling / reinstalling the camera driver (workaround):
1) is for W-7;
2) talks specifically for when the camera model is shown;
3) mentions if camera name isn't shown (least, in W-7), there may be other causes for Windows not detecting it.
But again, Explorer (& Photo Gallery) detect it fine & will D/L pics.

* One thing I discovered, is "autoplay" was turned off, including for cameras (as security "fix").
I turned it back on for cameras, but no change (yet). However, that should only affect prgms or Windows automatically opening when the camera's connected. It shouldn't affect their ability to detect it manually. And Explorer / Photo Gallery don't have problems detecting it, so...

I'm not convinced the problem's with Vista (because Explorer / Photo Gallery work).
It may be a problem w/ XV running in Vista (bug) :bug: ; or a missing file that XV wants, that doesn't bother Explorer / Photo Gallery. Or something entirely different.

I could install the Vista WPD update - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/971514, but we're really like mechanics "replacing random parts to see if any of them fix the problem." :D
I didn't see the update # already installed. It (probably) won't hurt, but probably won't help.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

David Vidmar ([url=http://web.archive.org/web/20130330182919/http://vidmar.net/weblog/archive/2008/07/17/getcanon-1.7.aspx]GetCanon![/url]) wrote:Canon stopped development of their DLL library GetCanon! uses. That’s why there is no support for newer cameras Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about it. You might try your luck with Windows Live Photo Gallery image downloader. It’s great, way better that GetCanon! I use it all the time.

It also doesn’t work on Windows Vista for the same reason. Some users reported that turning Windows XP compatibility on .exe file works.
Going AFK to get some Zs. WIA con dios! 2B continued ASAP… :P
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

Now that I've talked you into revealing your SSN and DOB, let's delve further into the mysteries behind TWAIN, STI, WIA, WPD, MTP, and PTP :mrgreen:
xnmen wrote:I'm confused - the quote says,
Currently MediaDetector doesn't use WIA device
Don't know who said that (a drunk poster? or Pierre?). EITHER way, there seem to be contradictions.
Besides, I'm trying to manually connect to the camera via XV's menu, where it clearly tells me it "Didn't find a connected WIA device."
xnview = Author of XnView = Pierre = sober

We have to differentiate between XnView and XnView MediaDetector. Although MediaDetector is able to locate and start xnview.exe, both applications are completely independent of each other. While XnView supports WIA (since v1.80), MediaDetector doesn't (as we've just learned).

BTW: Do you know if the 64-bit version of XnViewMP can connect to your SX100 IS?
xnmen wrote:IMPORTANT: As said, Explorer & Photo Gallery recognize the camera by make & model & import images.
That raises the question, if Explorer recognizes the camera, then is the issue w/ XV & any other software not recognizing it a Windows problem (or drivers therein), or a software problem (where they can't "find" the camera, even manually clicking "acquire camera," or equiv.)? Dunno.
I think we have to find out why ZoomBrowser (and CameraWindow) aren't able to connect to the camera. Are you using the latest version(s)?
For future reference:
MSDN ([url=http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd389004.aspx]WPD and Earlier Technologies[/url]) wrote:WPD contains many enhancements for digital still cameras and portable digital media players, and is the preferred method for accessing these devices in new versions of Windows. The existing Windows Image Acquisition (WIA) and Windows Media Device Manager (WMDM) APIs in Windows will continue to be supported and compatibility with WPD will be provided by compatibility layers. These compatibility layers ensure WPD devices can be transparently exposed to existing WIA and WMDM applications as WIA devices or WMDM service providers respectively. However, these applications may not have the same range of capabilities as they would with the new WPD API and new MTP-based devices.

The WPD MTP driver also supports Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP) devices. PTP devices that were supported in WIA will continue to function in WIA applications through the compatibility layer. Microsoft remains committed to ensuring application and digital still camera compatibility in the next version of Windows and these new technologies are designed to complement and enhance the digital still camera experience in Windows.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

OK, I've come to the conclusion that you should install the WPD Platform Update (KB971514) mentioned in one of my previous posts, because “these compatibility layers ensure WPD devices can be transparently exposed to existing WIA and WMDM applications as WIA devices or WMDM service providers respectively.”
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by xnmen »

No, the 64 bit ver of XVMP doesn't recognize the camera. In fact, the option (in general terms) of "connect to camera" appears to be removed from MP version.
XV-MP has an "import" fuction, but when I select it, it doesn't show any image files in the folders, when Browse to them. It shows "All files" under file types, to don't know what it's looking for.

No, I mentioned I don't have the latest ZoomBrowser. But, Canon's documentation say the Camera Window DC is what imports images from (some) cameras.
I have an older ver. of Camera Window - it doesn't recognize the camera, either.

Other than ZoomBrowser & Camera Window (for instance) perhaps providing some additional functions during import, I already have Photo Gallery that will import. Then use a 2nd prgm to view or do light editing. If I want to use 2 prgms - which I can use now w/ PhotoGallery & XV, IrfanView & several others.

One MAJOR issue I have w/ the whole Canon suite is it's extremely bloated. It may ? have a couple of functions that others (like XV) don't - not sure. But I'd really need those functions badly to install it all. It might have custom installation to leave off come components. In general, for viewing - it's no better than XV & a few others (or not as good).
you should install the WPD Platform Update (KB971514)
I'm on the WPD update, like stink on rice, or white on a June bug. Wait..., what? What could go wrong? :shock: There's always BUs & restore points. I'll probably try the update.

If that doesn't work, I probably won't devote much more time to this, unless more concrete info is found. I might post on Canon's or other advanced Windows user forums, to get broader audience on this specific issue. But you've been extraordinarily determined to find some solution. I've very appreciative.
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Re: Unclear how / if XnView imports images directly from cam

Post by XnTriq »

Thank you for testing XnViewMP. So it's not an 32-bit vs. 64-bit issue either.

I totally understand your aversion against Canon's bloatware. I never install the crap that comes bundled with cameras, printers etc.
Kodak tried to force their EasyShare monster down my throat. Luckily, I was able to isolate the driver for my model.

What it boils down to: Since even CameraWindow doesn't recognize the camera, it's no surprise XnView and MediaDetector can't see it.
Windows Explorer and Windows Photo Gallery obviously don't rely on those “compatibility layers” provided by WPD. Installing and uninstalling the manufacturer's software often fixes these kinds of issues, but I'm still convinced that update #971514 is the way to go.

Please report back in case you find a solution!
Hacki (CHDK Forum: [url=http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=237.210#msg18125]SX100 IS[/url]) wrote:
Second i'd like to ask, do i need a card reader to copy CHDK on SX 100 IS SD card or can i do it via USB - cam connector i got in a box?
You need a cardreader. First of all, i'm not sure if its even possible to simply transfer files to the camera via PTP, second: you'll need to make your SD card bootable, and that is not possible over PTP. (PTP = Picture Transfer Protocol, is used if the cam is directly connected to the pc)